Plastic Surgeon Dr. Saltz La Jolla, California 92037

Name: Lori H. Saltz, MD
Last name: Saltz
Gender: female
Began aesthetic medicine in: 1990
Years experience: 33
Primary Specialty: Plastic Surgeon
Business: La Jolla Cosmetic Surgery Centre
Address: 9850 Genesee Ave.
Address suite: Ste. 130
Phone: +1 858-452-1981
City: La Jolla
State: California
Zip Code: 92037
Country: US
Statement: We have more than 36,000 happy patients.

Consulting Fees: 0$
Consultation note: Mention RealSelf.com
Has Sponsored Offer : No

Clinical Privileges:

Scripps Memorial Hospital, La Jolla

Education:

Undergraduate: BS, Stanford University, Palo Alto
Medical: MD, Oregon Health Sciences Center Portland

Postdoc Training:

Residencies:
Plastic Surgery, Loyola University
Mt. Sinai Medical Center

Lori H. Saltz, MD

Member of:

American Society for Aesthetic Plastic Surgery (ASAPS)
American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS)

Board Certification:

Lori Hodgson Saltz (ABMSUID -02)

Viewed: 8/14/2008
Day of birth:
5/25/1954

Status: Alive
Certification: American Board of Plastic Surgery
Plastic Surgery – General

Status: Certified Active Lifetime Initial Certification 11/13/1993 –
Education: 1980 MD (Doctor of Medicine)
Location: La Jolla Cosmetic Surgery Centre9850 Genesee Ave Ste 130La Jolla, CA 92037-1206 (United States)

GPS coordinates on map: 32.8833691,-117.2265489

Primary location:

Location name: San Diego
State: CA
Country: US
Map point: 32.7188,-117.1640015

Google plus: https://plus.google.com/+LaJollaCosmeticSurgeryCentre

Treatments:

Arm Lift
Body Lift
Breast Augmentation
Breast Implant Removal
Breast Implant Revision
Breast Implants
Breast Lift
Breast Reduction
Chin Liposuction
CoolSculpting
Ear Surgery
Earlobe Repair
Eyelid Surgery
Facial Fat Transfer
Gynecomastia Surgery
Halo Laser
Latisse
Liposculpture
Liposuction
Male Tummy Tuck
Mini Tummy Tuck
Mommy Makeover
Neocutis
Nipple Surgery
Scar Removal
Sientra Breast Implants
ThermiTight
Thigh Lift
Tummy Tuck
Tummy Tuck Revision

RealSelf Info

Rating: 3.9
Profile views: 40429
Answer count: 395
Review count: 47
1 star count: 4
2 star count: 1
4 star count: 2
5 star count: 4
Total star count: 11
Star rating: 2.3918376195934
Anonymous votes: 7
Offer count: 0
Profile created: Nov 18, 2007
Profile modified: Sep 1, 2021
Profile promotion: No
Profile inactive: No
Premier status: Free
Tier: Pro
Linked url: https://www.ljcsc.com/plastic-surgeon-san-diego-saltz
RealCare Promise: No
Directory link: Board Certified Plastic Surgeon
RealSelf’s PRO: No
Doctor Designation Start Time: Mar 31, 2017
Doctor Designation End Time: Jan 1, 2033

Locations

La Jolla, CA, US. GPS coordinates: 32.8475,-117.2750015
San Diego, CA, US. GPS coordinates: 32.7188,-117.1640015

Latest ratings of treatments

Breast Implants (Jul 2019) – Overall rating: 5/5
Breast Augmentation (Jul 2019) – Overall rating: 5/5
Breast Implants (Aug 2017) – Overall rating: 1/5
Breast Augmentation (Nov 2018) – Overall rating: 5/5
Breast Augmentation (Nov 2018) – Overall rating: 5/5
Mommy Makeover (Dec 2018) – Overall rating: 5/5
Breast Implant Revision (Nov 2016) – Overall rating: 1/5
Breast Augmentation (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5
Tattoo Removal (Nov 2016) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 4/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 4/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Lift with Implants (Jan 2016) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 4/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Lift (Jan 2015) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Implants (Mar 2009) – Overall rating: 2/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 4/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Lift (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Augmentation (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 4/5, After care follow-up: 4/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 4/5)
Breast Lift with Implants (Jul 2015) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 4/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 4/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 4/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Augmentation (May 2013) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Implant Revision (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Tummy Tuck (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Implants (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Augmentation (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 4/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 4/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Implants (Feb 2013) – Overall rating: 3/5 (Wait times: 4/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 3/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 3/5, After care follow-up: 4/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 4/5)
Tummy Tuck (Feb 2011) – Overall rating: 0/5
Breast Lift (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 5/5
Breast Augmentation (Mar 2015) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)
Breast Lift (Sep 2023) – Overall rating: 1/5
Breast Augmentation (Apr 2019) – Overall rating: 5/5
Breast Augmentation (Apr 2018) – Overall rating: 5/5 (Wait times: 5/5, Doctor’s bedside manner: 5/5, Phone or email responsiveness: 5/5, Payment process: 5/5, Time spent with patient: 5/5, After care follow-up: 5/5, Staff professionalism & courtesy: 5/5, Answered questions: 5/5)

Latest Prices

Breast Implants Prices

$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$8000 – Aug 15, 2017 – San Diego, CA
$6885 – Jun 15, 2017 – La Jolla, CA
$7000 – May 1, 2015 – San Diego, CA
$4500 – Mar 2, 2009 – La Jolla, CA
$5000 – Sep 2023 – La Jolla, CA
$5500 – Feb 20, 2013 – San Diego, CA
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$5125 – Feb 20, 2001 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Mar 5, 2020
$8000 – Aug 15, 2017 – San Diego, CA
$8000 – May 10, 2014 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Mar 5, 2020
$8000 – Mar 5, 2020
$8000 – Mar 5, 2020
$8000 – Mar 5, 2020
$8000 – Mar 5, 2020
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$8000 – Aug 15, 2017 – San Diego, CA
$8000 – Aug 15, 2017
$6885 – Jun 15, 2017 – La Jolla, CA
$6885 – Jun 15, 2017 – La Jolla, CA
$5000 – Oct 2017 – La Jolla, CA
$6885 – Jun 15, 2017 – La Jolla, CA
$5500 – Feb 20, 2013 – San Diego, CA
$6995 – Jul 26, 2016 – San Diego, CA
$5500 – Feb 20, 2013 – San Diego, CA
$6995 – Jul 26, 2016 – San Diego, CA
$4500 – Mar 2, 2009 – La Jolla, CA
$6490 – Feb 7, 2014 – San Diego, CA
$12000 – Aug 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – May 10, 2014 – La Jolla, CA
$7000 – May 1, 2015 – San Diego, CA
$7000 – May 1, 2015 – San Diego, CA
$7000 – May 1, 2015 – San Diego, CA
$7000 – May 1, 2015 – San Diego, CA
$4500 – Mar 2, 2009 – La Jolla, CA
$5000 – Mar 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$5000 – May 2012 – La Jolla, CA
$5000 – May 2012 – Suite 130 Ximed Building , La Jolla, CA

Breast Augmentation Prices

$8300 – Jul 2, 2019
$7500 – Nov 20, 2018
$7995 – Nov 15, 2018
$5300 – Sep 2023 – La Jolla
$6000 – May 24, 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$6201 – Sep 2023 – La Jolla, CA
$6800 – Mar 20, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$11734 – Oct 8, 2020
$7500 – Jan 26, 2021
$7800 – Oct 20, 2020
$7800 – Oct 20, 2020
$11734 – Oct 8, 2020
$11734 – Oct 8, 2020
$7500 – Jan 26, 2021
$7500 – Jan 26, 2021
$7500 – Jan 26, 2021
$7500 – Jan 26, 2021
$7500 – Jan 26, 2021
$7500 – Jan 26, 2021
$11734 – Oct 8, 2020
$11734 – Oct 8, 2020
$11734 – Oct 8, 2020
$8000 – Mar 5, 2020
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$8300 – Jul 2, 2019
$8300 – Jul 2, 2019
$8000 – Aug 15, 2017
$8000 – Aug 15, 2017
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$7529 – Jul 25, 2019
$7500 – Nov 20, 2018
$7500 – Nov 20, 2018
$7995 – Nov 15, 2018
$7995 – Nov 15, 2018
$6000 – Nov 28, 2016 – La Jolla
$6000 – Nov 28, 2016 – La Jolla
$6000 – Nov 28, 2016 – La Jolla
$6000 – Nov 30, 2016 – La Jolla
$6201 – Oct 2018 – La Jolla, CA
$5125 – Feb 20, 2001 – La Jolla, CA
$5500 – Feb 20, 2013 – San Diego, CA
$6995 – Jul 26, 2016 – San Diego, CA
$6000 – May 2, 2014 – San Diego, CA
$6800 – Mar 20, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$6800 – Mar 20, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$6800 – Mar 20, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – May 10, 2014 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – May 10, 2014 – La Jolla
$9600 – Mar 6, 2014 – La Jolla, CA
$6200 – Jul 2014 – La Jolla, CA
$6000 – May 24, 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$6000 – May 24, 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$6490 – Mar 2013 – San Diego, CA
$6490 – Mar 2013 – San Diego, CA
$6200 – Jan 2012 – Suite 130 Ximed Building , La Jolla, CA
$5300 – Jun 2011 – La Jolla
$5300 – Jun 2011 – La Jolla
$5300 – Jun 2011 – La Jolla

Mommy Makeover Prices

$28000 – Dec 27, 2018
$20000 – Jun 27, 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$28000 – Dec 27, 2018
$28000 – Dec 27, 2018
$20000 – Jun 27, 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$20000 – Jun 27, 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$20000 – Jun 27, 2013 – La Jolla, CA
$20000 – Jun 27, 2013 – La Jolla, CA

Breast Implant Revision Prices

$6000 – Nov 30, 2016 – La Jolla
$5000 – Sep 2023 – La Jolla, CA
$6000 – Nov 30, 2016 – La Jolla
$6000 – Nov 30, 2016 – La Jolla
$5000 – Oct 2018 – La Jolla, CA

Tattoo Removal Prices

$245 – Nov 2, 2016 – Orange, CA
$245 – Nov 2, 2016 – Orange, CA
$245 – Nov 2, 2016 – Orange, CA

Breast Lift with Implants Prices

$10500 – Jan 21, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$10790 – Jun 25, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$12000 – Jul 10, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$10500 – Jan 21, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$10500 – Jan 21, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Sep 18, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$10500 – Jan 21, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$10500 – Jan 21, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$10500 – Jan 21, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$10500 – Jan 21, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$9600 – Mar 6, 2014 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Sep 18, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Sep 18, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Sep 18, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Sep 18, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$8000 – Sep 18, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$12000 – Jul 10, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$12000 – Jul 10, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$10790 – Jun 25, 2015 – La Jolla, CA

Breast Lift Prices

$9500 – Sep 2023 – La Jolla, CA
$9500 – Oct 2018 – La Jolla, CA

Tummy Tuck Prices

$120000 – Sep 2023 – San Diego, CA
$13000 – Feb 10, 2011 – La Jolla, CA
$13000 – Feb 10, 2011 – La Jolla, CA
$120000 – Sep 2017 – San Diego, CA
$120000 – Feb 2013 – San Diego, CA
$120000 – Feb 2013 – San Diego, CA

Sientra Breast Implants Prices

$6785 – Aug 18, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$6750 – Jul 2, 2015 – La Jolla, CA
$6785 – Aug 18, 2016 – La Jolla, CA
$6785 – Aug 18, 2016 – La Jolla, CA

Breast Implant Removal Prices

$9800 – Oct 3, 2019
$9800 – Oct 3, 2019

Mentor Breast Implants Prices

$6490 – Feb 7, 2014 – San Diego, CA
$6490 – Feb 7, 2014 – San Diego, CA

CoolSculpting Prices

$3500 – Jan 19, 2017

Other Prices

$6200 – Jan 2012 – La Jolla, CA

Doctor’s answers

Question

Answer Header & Date

Answer Snippet

Can my surgeon use my vertical c-section scar as an access point or will I have to have a horizontal

Vertical scar TT
Jan 29, 2017

The first and most important thing you need to do is see a Board Certified Plastic Surgeon about doing the tummy tuck. It is not something your OB-GYN is trained to do. The two surgeons will need to coordinate the two procedures. You will need to have a horizontal scar to pull the excess skin down. A good part of that vertical scar will be gone and you may have a shorter vertical scar low down on your abdomen. Ask your plastic surgeon. You appear to have an umbilical hernia that needs to be…

Will weight lose get rid of the side tissue (dog ears or whatever they are called)?

Bra Line Excess Following Breast Reduction
Jan 21, 2017

I t looks as if you had very large breasts. It is very common that the excess extends around the chest wall in women with this condition. It is also present in overweight women. In your case, I do not think losing weight will be enough although it would help. I always use liposuction in these instances, however when there is a lot the incision under the breasts can be extended to excise the excess skin that will result. Not infrequently scars around the sides of the chest do not heal nicely…

Follow-up Question: What happens if the capsule is left in during explant?

Capsulectomies at the Time of Explant
Jan 9, 2017

If you have saline implants I am not sure why you think your implants are making you sick. Even silicone implants have not been shown to cause illness. Whatever the reason, you ask a good question. My current position on capsulectomies at the time of explantation has evolved through experience. If you have capsular contractures then definitely have the capsules removed as they can continue to contract abnormally and distort the shape of your breast. I used to think that if the breasts were…

Is this fixable? Symmastia/tenting, double bubble etc. What can I expect? Who is the best surgeon for

Double Bubble Deformity
Jan 8, 2017

Every plastic surgeon wishes to make their patients happy, but sometimes what they want is not what their tissues will allow and still look normal. Your surgeon may have lowered your inframammary folds to accommodate the large implants you wanted. He/she should have warned you that this was a possibility. Had the implants been placed where your original folds were, your nipples may have been pointing downward because more of the volume was above them than below. You may have had short lower…

Going in for tummy tuck with muscle repair. I was offered Exparel but at a big added cost. Is it wort

Pain Control after TT
Jan 7, 2017

I have used Exparel on all of my abdominoplasties for several years and found that it works well. It does not cost $500 so I find that to be a bit high to charge a patient. Some studies have shown that using Marcaine in the same manner at the time of surgery works just as well and should not cost anything extra. Suppressing the pain response prior to surgery has made a big difference in the post-op pain patients have. I give 1200 mg of Gabapentin and 2 Celebrex two hours before surgery. My …

Follow-up: Why do my implants look like two balls and there is no slope from the chest wall to breast

Artificial Looking Breast Augmentation
Jan 7, 2017

You appear to be very slender. I suspect you had very little breast tissue. It is difficult to get a “natural” looking breast. A high profile implant gives you the least natural shape. Your implants also appear to be positioned too far toward the midline. Probably your surgeon was trying to get you cleavage, but now your nipples are pointing outward in a very unnatural manner. A lower profile or shaped implant would have given you a more gradual contour. I would also consider a smaller…

Inframammary fold compromised?

Tuberous Breast Augmentations
Jan 1, 2017

You have tuberous breasts; Type II in which the radial development of the lower half of the breast was restricted during development. This is a difficult breast to augment. The lower part of your breast is short and for the implant to be positioned so the nipple is in the correct position the fold needs to be lowered (often a lot). Doing this is a challenge and a risk. The implant can slip below the position of the new fold and the breast becomes too long. In your case the original fold left…

Will my implants get closer together or will they stay like this because of my anatomy?

Matters off Cleavage
Dec 31, 2016

Your breasts are widely spaced and you do not have any breast tissue that extends over the breast bone. Your implants are properly positioned and you have a lovely result; the best that can be hoped for. Cleavage is a matter of anatomy and the truth is that many women don’t get the cleavage they want because of it. Don’tchange a thing as it will only look un-natural.

How to fix bottoming out & improve cleavage

Breast revision
Dec 31, 2016

When folds are lowered and the inframammary incision is not secured bottoming out can eassily occur especially with smooth implants. The folds should be lowered carefully. Now the problem is getting the folds back up. This is not easy. Simple suturing of the pocket sometimes works, but often fails. You may need the addition of some sort of mesh or dermal graft support.Cleavage is a different matter. Your breasts are far apart and your implants are fairly centered behind your nipples along…

My tummy tuck is in two weeks. Exparel vs pain pump?

Exparel vs Pain Pump
Dec 28, 2016

Both will work. The newest discovery in pain managemment I used to use the pumps until Exparel came along. I found that patients are alreaddy anxious about having the drains and adding more tubes that have to be removed freaked them out just a bit more so the Exparel has been a blessing in that regard. I also didn’t like the fact that the pump tubing added another source of potential infection for several days. The tubes are not sutured in and have to be taped down. Even sewn in drains…

Breast Lift with Augmentation and Tummy Tuck with Dr Robles in April 2017

Medical Tourism
Dec 27, 2016

It sounds as if you have never seen or been examined by Dr. Robles. That is the first red flag. The surgery you “picked” may not be what you need. There are risks to longer procedures and you should find out a lot more about how long it will take, the certifications of the facility and who is going to do your anesthesia. What are his/her credentials? Complications are possible any time you have surgery. If a problem arises who is going to take care of you and at what cost? How many times do…

Implants move when I flex? Is this normal? Will it ever go away?

Animation Deformity
Dec 24, 2016

The pectoralis muscle does not cover the outside part of your implants. When the muscle flexes the contraction of the muscle all along your breast bone and clavicle will push the implants outward for as long as the muscle is contracted. Smooth implants generally move more than textured, but all implants under the muscle will do this to some degree. The only way to avoid it is to have the muscles on top of the muscle. That has it’s downsides, too especially if you are thin. The upper and…

Over 6 wks post breast augmentation. How likely is it that the flat spot on my breast will stretch/ro

Flat spot on lower breast following breast augmentation
Dec 24, 2016

It is way too soon to tell what the final outcome is going to be but here are some things to consider in the meantime. Your arms are up in the air which always accentuates the contour of the fold. The muscle puts force on the implant every time you flex it. The fibers of the pectoralis muscle lie in a diagonal direction so the implants are pushed in a down and out direction. With smooth implants especially this often results in rounding out of that lower corner of the breast over the first…

Is a Floating belly button the best option?

Floating Belly Button?
Nov 26, 2016

In my opinion you are definitely not a candidate for a mini-abdominoplasty. You need a standard abdominoplasty. Her belly button is high. It should be located on a line drawn from the top of one hip bone to the other. Anylower than that looks unatural. I mark patients I have them hold their abdominal tissues up very tightly and mark the incision where it will be afterand where they want it. In your case I am almost certain you will have a vertical scar as the distance that hole (from …

Will my breasts be a little bit bigger 3 months post augmentation?

Breast Size Too Small?
Nov 26, 2016

No one, not even you, can know what size breasts they are going to be happy with until they have lived with them for 3-6 months. Generally speaking as the swelling comes down they will look smaller to you. As the muscle and skin stretch over the next few months the implant will settle into the bottom part of your breast filling it out, but also decreasing the volume in the upper part of your breast. When you look down atyourself,your perception may be that they are smaller when in fact they…

Latest Before And After Photos

Surgical Repair Of The Eyelid Patient By Doctor Saltz, La Jolla, California

Dr Saltz, La Jolla, California Cosmetic Surgery Eyelids

Dr. Lori H. Saltz, MD, La Jolla, California Blepharoplasty For Eye Bags Candidate

Last updated on 11/21/2023